Jun 05 2008
ABA accredited school coming to china?
Wow, as if there weren’t enough ABA law schools–191 of them–and a whole host of other unaccredited schools, some of which are seeking accreditation, there is talk of an ABA approved school in China. If it happens, it would be the first school approved outside of the U.S. and it’s territories that I know. There are 2 in Puerto Rico, but this would take the cake.
From the National Law Journal (free subscription required) article:
Peking University School of Transnational Law wants to become the first foreign law school accredited by the American Bar Association.
The school in China will welcome its inaugural class this fall, with 55 students enrolled.
Founding dean Jeffrey Lehman will seek ABA accreditation for the school so that graduates can take bar examinations in the United States. Lehman is a former president of Cornell University and former dean of University of Michigan Law School.
The three-year program at Peking University School of Transnational Law will be taught in English and will cover American law. The school expects to become a supplier of lawyers to international law firms needing help in foreign offices. It will function independently of Peking University’s Chinese-based law school.
No other foreign law school is accredited by the ABA, nor has any foreign school sought ABA accreditation, said an ABA spokeswoman. The ABA standards do not limit accreditation to U.S. law schools only, the spokeswoman said.
Well, I am not sure how to respond to this. First, I think the U.S. already has a system in place where ABA accredited law schools allow foreigners to do a 1 year LL.M. program in American law. And then qualify for most bar exams, including New York, which is probably the most important of the U.S. licenses for foreigners. If it ain’t broke, why fix it? Other than the fact that this new school in China will probably be yet another cash-cow for Beijing Daxue. Does BeiDa need such a program? Not really…
Second, there is something to be said about studying American law in America. To understand the law, its not merely a matter of black letter law. That ends up making awful lawyers who don’t care about nuances and policies, who don’t know how to argue and litigate changes to the law (and loopholes), etc. I think there is much to be said about studying American law here. Just as I think studying Chinese law in an America law school is folly. I won’t say utter folly, but it is still not the brightest of ideas.
Thid, it seems to be foreign firms and even US/British firms are just fine in hiring local law graduates. Why bother with a J.D., 3 years of your life and tuition, and another 2 months to take a bar exam to “practice” law that you won’t really practice? It goes back to my cash-cow argument.
Call me a cynic, but I just don’t see a need for this school.
Tom: I share your cynicism and agree with all the points you make. A couple of others: gaining ABA accreditation is going to be extremely difficult, and I quite frankly don’t think Beida will throw the resources at this venture necessary to obtain it. Without ABA accreditation, this school does Chinese students no good in qualifying for the NY bar examination because New York requires a qualifying “program of study” to be completed “in the United States.” I’m not even sure ABA accreditation will remove this little glitch. I read another report that said that at least initially only students who did not major in law as undergraduates will be admitted to the program. What international law firm in China is going to hire Chinese lawyers that don’t know Chinese law? Finally, why put this school in Shenzhen? There are no US or UK law firms in Shenzhen, and it will be very hard to attract international faculty there. I think it would be great if Chinese law schools adopted more American law teaching methods. There are modest efforts underway to advance this adoption, but I do not think this school aids those efforts, indeed, it may hurt them by ghettoizing “American-style law” in a special school.
Charlie, I couldn’t agree more with your comments. Even if Beida threw its back into getting ABA accreditation, I have my doubts it would even get it given the number of schools trying to get it right now. (UC Irvine comes to mind) I hate to sound like a gatekeeper in this case, but I just think that is best for the profession under the circumstances.
Thanks for stopping by and leaving your comment, though I disagree with you. In talking with a number of colleagues (Chinese lawyers, many of them who did their undergrad/grad at Beida), this program is extremely attractive for one main reason, the price. There is already an LLM program through Qinghua (and Temple) which teaches classes in English and has the blessing of the ABA, but Chinese LLM’s prefer the chance to go abroad and travel for a year, whereas those going for JDs are more serious, but the price is often too prohibitive for them.
Why Shenzhen? Its simple, like any great experiment, like the one that “old man” conducted back in the early 90s, Shenzhen puts it out of the spotlight. If it fails, nobody notices, if it succeeds, it can very quickly be brough to Beijing. I think the choice of dean shows that Beida means business, all major Chinese firms have offices in Shenzhen (for internships during the school year), while all major US/UK firms have HK offices (just across the border, easy for OCI). Plus, Shenzhen is arguably China’s most livable city for foreigners.
You are also off with your 3rd point. If you are a Chinese graduate and you want a decent chance of getting a job with even a top Chinese firm, you need to be either a Beida/Qinghua/Fudan grad and/or have a US/UK LLM to get you in the door. A US JD from a tier 1 school almost guarantees you a position and high status in a top 5 Chinese firm, it will also get you in the door at US/UK firms. If you are not a graduate from one of those 3 Chinese law schools (and maybe add Zhejiang and Renda), and you don’t have a US/UK LLM, you basically have no shot at a Chinese or US/UK “biglaw” firm.
Hehe, in any case, its an interesting conversation and I’d like to hear your thoughts on these additional points. It will be interesting to see what happens with this school over the years.
I’m actually glad to have a Chinese lawyer perspective on this b/c Charlie and I are still ultimately U.S. trained lawyers, with U.S. legal system biases.
I personally have no problem with Shenzhen, though I did think it slightly strange that Beida wouldn’t keep their law school near the main campus. I would’ve hoped that such a program, if it was indeed worthy of such an undertaking, wouldn’t be just put on experimental status in Shenzhen. Instead, I do think that it should’ve been in Beijing if it was going to try to seriously vie for ABA accreditation. Of course, I don’t think it makes a big difference, but it could raise some questions as to just how committed Beida is to this program.
One thing I didnt know is that you needed particular degrees to get into the biglaw firms. I have been practicing entirely in the U.S., so this is news to me, and I appreciate you pointing that out. My question is this: will this J.D. actually mean anything for admission to a prestigious lawfirm if the law school does not get accreditation? I’m not certain either way, and appreciate perspective on this.
Ultimately, I do not think this school will gain ABA accreditation in the near future. The ABA is quite protective and lately has been wanting to revoke accreditation, rather than granting it. Even UCI’s new Bren law school with Erwin Chemerinsky is still going to have to fight for its accreditation. Given the ABA’s desire to be a gatekeeper and try to limit such accreditation, I am not hopeful that Beida’s school will get it. Both because of the fact that American law schools are producing too many lawyers (which they are) and because lawyers, like other professionals and academics, tend to be strong gatekeepers (which is a self-preservation technique).
I hope I am making sense since its a bit late right now.
Well, I’m also a US trained lawyer, but I work in a Chinese firm, alongside Chinese lawyers and so have a bit more information about what it takes to get in the door here.
Colleagues are a bit split about what a JD would mean at a top Chinese firm, some think it helps, others feel it would cause the firm to worry you’d want to jump ship quickly and go to a US/UK firm, so perhaps I overstated that in my comment this morning, but LLMs are expected, either before you get to the firm or within your first 2-3 years at the firm.
If the school doesn’t get ABA accredidation, I don’t think there are many students who’d want to go. As I mentioned earlier, you can already do an LLM in English at Qinghua that I believe allows you to take the NY bar, so why bother with a 3 year program that wouldn’t let you take the bar at the end? Also, it has the negative that Charlie pointed out, right now the Chinese undergrads get a Chinese law degree, then go to study a JD/sJD/LLM in the US/UK to supplement that, making them more tempting, but if this program doesn’t accept law students AND doesn’t have the ABA’ support, why bother? That said, it has the Beida name behind it, so I’d never underestimate it.
I do agree that the battle for ABA approval is not going to be easy and I honestly have no idea how the whole accredidation process works and so attempting to speak intelligently about it would be a mistake. That said, I could see how the internationalist nature of this could appeal to some (but could also work against the school). As above, though, I’ll never underestimate Beida….
Make no mistake – the ABA does not approve schools outside the US. It is foolish to think that no school has asked previously. If the ABA were to start – why would it start with a start up school! Dozens of well established schools around the world could easily meet ABA standards if they were eligible. The ABA would most likely start with Canadian law schools since their education system is very similar to law schools in the US.
Interestingly, before a change like this could occur there would be a period of enormous amount of public comment. The ABA’s power is only via state supreme courts that have acquiesced in the notion that ABA graduates can sit for the bar. I am not sure if state’s would agree with such an extension. In other words, if the ABA tries to approve schools outside the US it would need to get the blessing of the states first. That discussion, to the best of my knowledge, has not even started. Many states may find it difficult to reconcile the potential that a graduate of a foreign law school can sit for their bar but a person from a non aba approved law school located in the US cannot sit for the bar.
Kurt